SPEAKER_01 0:02

Good morning and welcome to the Future Ventures podcast.

SPEAKER_02 0:06

Hi, good morning, Max.

SPEAKER_01 0:08

Good morning. Okay, my money's sorry. My guest today is a global food and food tech investor who spent 25 years on the ground across Southeast Asia before moving to Amsterdam to help build one of the most respected alternative protein funds in the world. His managing partner for Europe and Asia at Unifice Asset Management, Kim and their partner has backed some of the most consequential companies in the food system from Beyond Meat and Oatley to cultivated meat pioneers like Mossameat and Left Farms. He's been investing in this band since before most people knew it had a name. Kim, welcome to the Future Ventures podcast on scaling with clarity.

SPEAKER_02 0:58

Thank you, Max. It's a pleasure to be here.

SPEAKER_01 1:02

Same here. I've been looking forward to having a conversation with you for a very long time. Um as you know, the our company name is Future Ventures. So we are building out this series on the future of life sciences, future food. And so I'm super excited about the conversation today and get your perspectives on kind of like what does the future food look like? Are we going to continue 8 billion people in a sustainable way? So why don't we just gonna start with uh who you are, Kim? How did you come to venture? Um, what makes you tick?

SPEAKER_02 1:38

Sure. Oh, appreciate the uh opportunity, Max. Um, so I'm I'm as you say, Kim Odener. I'm I'm uh I'm based in Amsterdam. I'm American by birth. Um a number of years ago, um in seeking out adventure. Uh my wife and I moved to Southeast Asia in uh about 1995, landed in Hong Kong, and then from there went down to Vietnam. And uh while in Vietnam, I was working with a uh an investment firm out of Hong Kong that had a couple of projects that they had seeded there, and so I was one of the earliest investors in in the the newly emerging uh Vietnam uh of the day. And and my background really from that point forward was really um uh emerging markets, private equity. So a lot of the work that I've done over the course of uh my career is has really been even even if the checks were larger, uh it was fairly early stage and involved a tremendous amount of hands-on um investment, but then post-investment activity. So um, so that's the kind of investor that I that I've become over the years. Um I I stayed in Southeast Asia and uh worked really across the region for a number of years and then uh relocated to the United States in 2016. And when I came back to to uh the US, I I reconnected with an old friend, uh guy named Chris Kerr. And Chris had just been given the mandate to to set up the new crop capital trust and uh was looking for some uh experienced help to get that fund launched and and and start investing in in some of the companies that you mentioned. Um, and and so that's that's really how I got from uh more of a private equity background into into the venture space. And at the time I I really wanted to do something that was a little bit more meaningful, where the work that we were doing was was uh um somehow um contributing something back.

unknown 3:44

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 3:45

So that that's uh that's kind of how I got involved uh initially.

SPEAKER_01 3:50

And so who who is the uh the the founder, the creator of the of the universe? Is it Chris with uh because my my thing from kind of doing my prep was that the first fund, fund one was like about$50 million, um, and then the cart the fund two is$150 million. And so was he kind of the driving force behind the creation of the funds?

SPEAKER_02 4:13

Sure. Okay, so so uh that first fund really only had one single LP, and that LP had a kind of a philanthropic bend. Um, and our mission at the time, our our mandate, if you will, uh was to go out and change the narrative around our dependence on animal agriculture. Um and and so that was a fairly broad mandate, particularly at a time when there weren't too many companies that were actually investing in alternative proteins. Um and so when we when we went out and and we were looking for opportunities, we frequently found that that we were the only investors in the room. So that gave us you know early access to some of the companies that you had mentioned earlier, companies like Mosa Meat, um, Upside Foods. Um these companies you know at the time had had very little, if any, sponsorship that was that was sort of from the private sector. Um and and and so uh so it gave us a lot of uh you know a lot of opportunity to learn, a lot of opportunity to to sort of influence the the initial outcome of some of these companies. Um so it's a pretty exciting time.

SPEAKER_01 5:20

And and so, but if if wait to just kind of build it the corporate uh pierce the corporate veil, like quiz came on and like what what do you like to do? Like what uh what kind of tribes you like? Family, kids?

SPEAKER_02 5:33

Um Yeah, I yeah, I I'm I'm I'm I'm married. I have uh I have two children. They're they're fairly grown by now. I've got a daughter who's 23, she's living in Colorado, and I've got a son. Um he's just turned 20, and he's based in New Orleans. He's studying music and she's studying international affairs. So uh okay.

SPEAKER_01 5:55

Sounds like the daughter is following in your footsteps, and the son is being more on a creative side.

SPEAKER_02 6:01

Yeah, well, I come from sort of a creative family, uh, a lot of musicians in my family. Unfortunately, I didn't I that that talent didn't uh sort of but my children are both quite creative. I've totally innovation. Yeah. Well, I I guess my creativity is different, you know. I I I uh mine was more on the adventure side. So we you know, in in the course of our lives, uh my wife and I have lived in Philadelphia and in in New York City for about five years. We lived in uh we we lived in uh Hanoi, we lived in Saigon, we lived in Hong Kong, we lived in Singapore, Malaysia, San Francisco, Los Angeles, and now uh Amsterdam. So kind of traveled around the world a bit, and uh that's something that I really enjoyed. Is there sorry? Is there a favorite city for you, or do you all love a different you know I yeah, I mean, I I I used to say that Hong Kong was one of my favorite cities in the world. Um and I I think it was uh you know attributable to a really exciting time in my life. Uh it was a great place to to hike. There's a lot of outdoor activities, right proximal to the city itself. So it was a lot of energy and and and um dynamism. Um Hanoi was a really fascinating place at a really interesting time. Uh Saigon is a very energetic city. Uh food's great. Uh it's risky crossing the road now on foot. Um, Singapore was a really wonderful place to live for a period of time, particularly having young children. Um as a crossroads, you know, people from all over the world are in Singapore, you know, pursuing opportunities throughout Southeast Asia. And uh so as a result, you it it it is a really dynamic place to be from a personal perspective. Um, I like Mumbai in India. It's a fascinating city, also very, very energetic. Um and then here in the Netherlands, it's been it's been a real pleasure living here in in the Netherlands and and having the opportunity to explore more of Europe. Um yeah, it's uh it's uh it's been an interesting journey, that's for sure.

SPEAKER_01 8:20

Yeah, they all have different things to offer. So um in terms of um if we if we're just gonna shift gears a little bit and talk about foods, and given that you've lived in so many different places in the world, where do you see foods and food tech evolving and how are we going to feed the world's population? And in what ways? I mean, in in some parts of the world, alternative protein is is really, really common. Uh in North America, it's not as much, even though it's increasingly so. Um, I was talking to Dr. Sylvain Charabois, who is uh a professor at Dauhaus University, and he just recently published a report on global agri-food. And so in the report, the the stated um um some of the findings there that we kind of will continue to enter the K-shape economy, like beef protein, uh chicken is is has inflated 8% since last year, whereas pork and um Turkey has gone down. But again, animal protein is not necessarily the solution. So what's your view on why the industry's had it?

SPEAKER_02 9:37

Yeah, I mean it's um it is really an interesting challenge, and I and I think um, you know, we we've sort of sort of seen a little bit of an ebb and flow in this area. I mean, it was uh people were quite excited, uh let's say, uh, around 21, uh 2021, 2022, around the idea of alternative proteins. And I think people were kind of in a in a more um adventuresome stage, uh, maybe because the geopolitical system or the economy, things like that were not such a distraction. And so people were willing to take some risks at that time, uh, even with their diets and and and uh and sort of in in the interest of of um of sort of the greater good, let's say. Um but I think you know when it really comes down to it, um food's a funny thing because you know we we all make decisions around food at least three times a day, right? If we're lucky. Um and it tends to be impulsive. So we we tend to eat what you know what is before us, what what is you know readily available. Um, it's price-driven, but it's also convenience-driven. Um, and so um so to try and prescribe what people will eat as an as an investor or even as a company that's producing a product, it's very challenging. I mean, ultimately, the people who really make decisions around what we eat are people who kind of control the supply chain, if you will. So if you look at you know, big retailers and things like that, people tend to buy what's available, you know, what's presented to them. Um, and of course, you know, there are marketing messages and things like that, and all those things play into why people make choices around the things that they eat. But at the end of the day, I mean, so much of it is really driven by sort of point of sale, you know, what's available, what's what's uh what's readily available, and and how convenient is it at the moment of decision around you know consumption. So when we think about the food system and we think about all of the challenges that uh that the food system faces right now, as you say, I mean, we're we're looking at a global population that's you know, by by 2050, these numbers are not uh uh revealing because we we all have heard them over and over again. But you know, we're looking at a uh a global population of 10 billion people. We're looking at a food industry today that is, you know, quite reliant on uh on land and and water, two resources that frankly don't scale. I mean, they can't continue to scale um in in ways that will be necessary to survive to to um to feed and nourish the global population using the same you know ingredients that we do today. So I mean that that's the that's the fundamental driver. But you know, we're asking people to make choices today about you know populations of tomorrow, if you will, you know, so you can't you can't ask people to make choices today. Um, I mean you can ask them, but they're not inclined necessarily to make choices today, sacrifices today in the interest of of those who will come after them. Um so the point that I'm trying to make here is that really at the end of the day, I mean, the solutions that we come up today with today that make our food system more scalable and more sort of let's say economical in terms of land use and water use and in terms of uh uh nutritional content and the ability to actually get product to market um that consumers are willing to eat. We have to focus on the things that let's say make sense to industry because again, you know, industry will produce products that will then make their way into channels like retail, and consumers will effectively buy what is presented to them in those venues. Um and so uh one of the areas that I think um we we'll see a lot more focus going forward is around things like um you know strategic ingredients, ingredients that go into foods um that are that require less land or less water or you know are are more economically grown. Um and when we talk about growing and we talk about economically growing, you know, it gives rise to questions around well what goes into growing food in the first place. And um, and and you know, are there are there um you know food security related issues around around uh um those products?

SPEAKER_01 14:18

So the I mean the the food system is very very antiquated. Um what I mean by this is like there's the food brokers, there's the group buy's, uh there's listing services, so everything is kind of designed for scale. Um so if you're on a an alternative food company, how do you get in, how do you change this this system so there's greater variety? Um, because if even if the consumers are demanding it, how do they get the products unless they get them into the big hands of like you know, the big giants like Cisco, who have the ability to distribute this food to grocers?

SPEAKER_02 15:10

Yeah, I mean it's a good question. I mean, I I I think for first of all, um no matter what it is, I mean, the food is food is substantially price-driven. I mean, consumers make a lot of decisions around what what they can afford, of course. And and so as a result, uh that that's what motivates a lot of the a lot of the supply chain. They look at things that ultimately will be consumed because one of the biggest challenges within the food system is is really um food waste. And um so shelf life and things like that and rotations become really, really important. So you don't want to put something on the shelf that's ultimately not going to sell, right? And particularly if it has a relatively short shelf life. So so uh so a lot of the a lot of the innovators, let's say, uh of of uh let's say the last the last five years or so were focused on products, producing products that that didn't necessarily have long self-lives. And um, and the challenge there is that there's a there's kind of a lag between consumers being presented with something and making the decision to actually embrace those products in their lifestyle. So going all the way back to the example of Beyond Meat, the products that they produce have a relatively short shelf life, right? So you need to bring consumers along uh and and and and warm them to the idea of the products that you're producing, um, such that they consume essentially what you produce, right? And with a company like Beyond Meat, its ability to produce and put product on the shelf is one part of the challenge. But the other part of the challenge is you need consumers that are willing to actually buy the product that you produce. And I think early on there was a there was a belief, there was a general belief that that uh you know, kind of a build-it and they will come mentality. And I think most of us believed that those products were um were sufficient for consumers to change their behavior and embrace those products and and continue to support them as the businesses scaled. Fact is that's that's what we've of course learned is that that's not actually what happened. And um and it's true of of many different things. You know, they're either fad-driven or price point is is problematic, or the taste and the texture are not adequate. I mean, there's a whole host of things that that that that um impact consumers' willingness to to sort of go along with what you're producing and and and delivering to through retail.

SPEAKER_01 18:02

So if we're to double quick on on this as a as a case study, um what were the hypothesis when you guys decided to invest in Beyond Mead? And what did you learn from the consumer expectations? Kind of like where was the Dell there in the two?

SPEAKER_02 18:20

Well, I think I I mean to begin with, I mean, we we had a mandate to support companies like that, right? To change that narrative. And and the reality is that there has been an uptake in plant-based foods, right? I mean, consumers are actually eating products today that didn't exist previously. And one of the things about Beyond Meat is that Beyond Meat is really um, I believe, is one of the companies that really actually jumpstarted people's excitement and enthusiasm around uh food tech and and sort of uh alternative proteins because their IPO really um caught people's imagination and and and attention and um and it encouraged people to try to try the product. So I mean it served a very, very important function in the course of you know kind of transforming the food system. Um but unfortunately uh I I think I think the expectations for that company sort of way outpaced where the market was actually at, and it continues to be that you know, as of today. You look at value market valuations and things like that. I mean, it was unfair to drive the valuation of Beyond Meat to where it ultimately soared to, you know, relative to what companies like that typically trade at on uh you know in the marketplace under normal circumstances.

SPEAKER_01 19:45

So speaking of valuations, um, how should founders think about valuations of food tech related company? Should this be similar to a food-related company, or should the valuation be more aligned with what the ability or the future potential, the scalability the food tech company presents?

SPEAKER_02 20:07

Well, I mean it's a good question, and and I and I think to a certain extent, I mean, you know, we always default to to pricing things around the value of typical food companies. Uh there there may be more IP in there, and there may be something substantially disruptive about that that technology that might give rise to a higher valuation, but but the fact is that people are trained to think about food and you know, food inputs and and and food manufacturing and things like that. So valuations will probably more closely uh track against against regular food companies. I I mean if you look at things like I mean, there's some some certainly areas, you know, biotech uh related food ingredient companies and things like that, they might tend to track uh on a slightly higher valuation, or things like you know, high-value nutraceuticals, things like that. Uh, you know, it really depends on kind of what what the what the um the subset of comparables really looks like. Um because for some of these, you know, there isn't an adequate uh subset of uh comparables. So if you take a company that's producing, you know, uh a replacement for a for a milk protein, something like um whey or or uh or something like lactoferin or something like that, you know, obviously um you you can't look at you know the traditional milk industry for valuation indices. So you're you're probably more likely to look at some you know the way that it's being produced and then and then price it according to uh to to to the kind of technology that's being deployed.

SPEAKER_01 21:52

So we with the with this context, what are the the the

SPEAKER_02 22:00

alternative foods that you're the most excited about the the things that that you're watching out that the the foods that consumers ought to be on the lookout or seek out i i think i think increasingly i this this is um it's a it's a great what a great question actually because um i i i think um in the course of trying to produce more food more quickly i mean if i if if i may let me let me just step back for a minute where our food system really has its origins is in the green revolution right i mean that that's something that happened in the late 50s early 60s a guy named borlog sort of gave rise to this this um practice of of creating you know genetic genetic uh species of of of uh crops that that uh could withstand some of the some of the traditional challenges of of environment of uh pestilence and things like that um and and that just that just resulted in enormous production capability but the production capability was dependent on inputs you know costly inputs like fertilizer and things like that but it also led to monocropping and it led to um you know some of the things that people are afraid of today like GMO and things like that but fact is is that that um really was transformative i mean it it it really changed you know global populations uh it it led to an abundance of food that that really um you know kind of helped fuel uh the world's population growth as we know it today um and and in the course of that sort of rapid growth um to a certain extent uh food those those kinds of crops became sort of logical ingredients for a whole host of different things um and and because they were so cheap to produce um and and because they could be used you know sort of deployed um as synthetic ingredients that helped to extend shelf life and things like that what we wound up doing is we wound up taking our eyes off things like um flavor and and nutrient and and and nutrient density and things like that so um so that gave rise to to firms that were um uh producing flavors so the flavors now there are flavoring companies that actually produce flavors that help to add flavoring to products that normally would have tasted like let's say a poultry like a chicken frequently chicken products actually will wind up with synthetic flavoring that help to create recreate that flavor of chicken because in the haste to grow these um these creatures or these these crops what's happened is actually the nutrients that would normally take let's say six months to embed themselves um because of the accelerated growth process the those those nutrients are not embedded nor are the flavors and and and things like that that that would come along with it so um so the point is is that you know what we're missing today is we're missing you know good flavored products we're missing the a lot of the nutrients the micronutrients that we formerly are uh were dependent upon and consumers are looking for those nutrients but what we don't understand is how those nutrients are actually absorbed by them in the body so health claims uh are a way that that uh producers can uh advertise that you know their products contain all of the nutrients that are you know that that consumers may be looking for yeah but the reality is that those nutrients may not actually be digestible or or accessible they call it bioavailability that there may not be bioavailability in your own body uh to absorb those those kinds of nutrients so that space is becoming very very interesting and and one of the things that's really kind of spurred people's interest in that space is the GLP1 craze that's kicked off about uh let's say 24 months ago um and and with that uh what what doctors are recognizing is that people are losing weight which is wonderful but what they're also losing is they're losing uh muscle mass they're they they they they require more fiber more protein they they uh they they tend to be um you know not I won't say malnutrition uh nourished but they they don't have the kinds of nourishment that that's required so this has given rise to a whole industry of what are called companion foods that sit alongside GLP and that that people should be eating in order to to to get the kind of nutrients and and uh and and nourishment that they need um given given this uh sudden change in in diet so I mean these kinds of things are interesting there's another area that's become really really popular and very um interesting and that is um active nutrition active aging um you know many of the um uh of the economies in the world you're seeing um you know aging populations people want to live uh a healthier longer life and so they're starting to focus more and more on things like nutrition and and uh and and specific products that that will help to live uh lead to to longevity so so it it it is your as your um as you're talking a couple of thoughts come to mind it's still um i i live half of my life in in europe half of my life in in Canada and as you know in europe there's a lot of ingredients that are banned in the United States or Canada and food just tastes different in Europe versus in the states so uh the it's almost like this the economy flavor is they almost at least from my perspective diametrically opposed to scale um in in europe it's a lot more common to find uh farms and it's a lot more common to find uh polycultures um and in the United States or Canada it's a lot more common to find mass farms and monocultures so kind of like how would this how can we bridge the divide and you know drive better foods better quality ingredients or higher caloric value or or uh better better tasting food here in uh in in in North America is it um a situation of building uh almost companion farming to like gas plants uh where we can use the ambient energy or the stranded energy to to produce food kind of what does the future look like from uh food production perspective hmm well i guess it really depends on what what kind of food production we're talking about i mean i i i think um look i i i'm uh you know w whether it's whether it's uh you know vegetables or whether it's you know animal proteins i mean i i i I think I think price will drive a a lot of you know decisions the decisions around certainly around you know if you look at uh you know beef prices have been rising steadily um and that's given rise to you know conversations and and and to a certain extent some action around you know blended you know blended um let's say um um beef um uh mints for example you know you're you're starting to hear more and more about you know blends which is kind of interesting because you know if you went back uh you know 20 years we were eating many more blended blended meat products then than we are today in part because um because of that you know I I don't know if you recall but the you know the the health scare in the UK over um over you know mad cow disease and things like that. So I think to a certain extent I mean there there was a good reason why we sort of went back to you know kind of pure meat consumption you know around you know let's say beef or the product that you believed that you're eating it was was largely uh you know comprised of that but I think today there's a there's a compelling reason to to look at blends uh one of the compelling reasons is obviously cost another one is actually health you know if you if you blend um you know beef mince with with uh with let's say a soy ingredient um you know you're reducing the other fat content and uh you're you're um you're introducing you know what is essentially a a a a similar digestible protein in other words there's something called the PD cas rating which is the digestibility of a protein and soy and beef are on par you know so it's not like you're making a sacrifice in terms of your nutritional um needs in fact you're you're you're actually getting a very similar um profile so um but if you look at things like um you know whether it's vegetables things like that I mean the the the um I I think it's we we what we are consuming today uh as consumers and and you know we're we're talking a lot about you know what consumers do and and consume and things like that. I mean we're talking very much about a western sort of um let's say uh OECD type you know uh highly developed economy um but uh I I think what what you find is that um we've been exposed to many different varieties of foods from all over the world and so our our our uh dietary repertoire is much broader than than it was historically and that's that's particularly true in in diverse countries uh like like say you know North America Canada and the United States where you have people from all over the world there's a there's a much broader sort of um a dietary expectation you know around consumers um who've come from many different places so in Europe one of the reasons why you know food is good is because a lot of times food is local and the reason it's local is because that hits people's you know local um uh interests and desires and expectations so and and france is a particularly you know notorious country for example I mean people want to buy stuff that that is produced in France but part of the reason why is because they they they they they want the kinds of foods that they're used to um and that's certainly not the case in places like Paris but you know if you go to if you go to North America you've got a much broader uh um population of people from different parts of the world and that and those expectations are even more varied and the expectation is that those products will probably have come from afar to arrive and in fact in some ways they're they're looking for things that come from the home country let's say wherever that may be right so the point is is that there's there's not that same resistance to to to products that have come from afar.

SPEAKER_01 33:40

So I mean in in where I live in Canada um it doesn't even matter where you go even if you go into the biggest grocers they would have international sections with you know food from the Philippines or Mexico or like wherever in the world it it's almost it's it's so normal that like you don't even think about it. I'm almost of the opinion that they would stop branding it as international just going to brand it as like you know I don't know curse or like rice or whatever it might be like um yeah but I want to get your perspective on on something because you were talking about land even in North America even in Canada where we're starting to see cricket farms and alternative protein coming coming in vogue um but obviously for us here in North America there's a bit of an eke factor um about this um protein is protein from from my perspective is the key to get to try to increase adoption of alternative protein to just blend it kind of like your example around blended meats uh or blended products is this a way to increase the uh I don't know the adoption of alternative protein first of all I'm hanging a little bit on on a comment you made a minute ago which is you know that protein is protein yeah it's interesting protein is is is certainly not protein I mean you know different different proteins carry with them different attributes and different nutritional um uh benefits let's say you know I I'm I'm a vegetarian as it happens uh you know really as a result of my my my investment focus but um I I I routinely am missing out on uh heme iron for example and the the source of heme iron the the primary source of heme iron is is is is is meat right so if if my doctor prescribes to me uh heme iron pills probably those the origin is is of an of animal origin right so there are some sometimes types of protein that deliver things that that you just need that you can't get anywhere else so if you talk about things like crickets like insects and things yeah there's an ick ick factor absolutely um and that is you know again that that that is a protein that that you know does you know it probably has a PD cas one meaning that it's it's it's bioavailable you know you can consume it and and it's it it you know you you use it it delivers all you know the amino acids and things like that that you that you're requiring but the ick factor is important right I mean it's it's it's a bridge too far for many many people and so as a result if you look at the industry um to use those proteins as an ingredient in food there's there are things that make it challenging for a for a producer so if I'm if if I'm uh looking to to use it as a blend for example I want to look at proteins that uh that don't have any off nodes that that um that that have um a texture uh that that works and that that simulates it's very similar similar to to to let's say what I'm trying to blend it with um and and not all proteins function in the same you know can be applied to to any application right so if you look at insects what insects have proven to be best suited for is for things like uh fish feed or or uh animal feed things like that um and so that that's really where they've found most of their market because they they struggle to find a place in in um in in the um you know human consumption but some of it might be because they have an off node and that off node needs to be masked and the masking that they use to hide the off node that flavorant can be quite expensive so in a plant based product the the the flavoring could be anywhere from let's say you know 30 to 45 percent of the cost so it's quite expensive okay okay so if I I heard you say price and input um is is probably the two biggest determinants of of mass adoption what would drive um what would drive the cost down uh how should food tech companies think about driving the cost down in order to to get the price to more closely aligned with what traditional food sources uh costs are and where where does government support play a role because i'm i mean we know that a lot of the agriculture system is um is on a quarter or it's it's it's heavily subsidized by the government yeah um also a good question i mean i i i think um subsidy is is is certainly a problem um and and and you know if you think if conceptually if you were to um compare a a a soy burger let's say with a beef burger intuitively you would believe that you know the soy burger being of of plant origin and and with you know requiring much less inputs and things like that it should be much cheaper but fact is is it's not and and and part of that is definitely attributable to scale for sure um and part of that is you know there is a subsidy element to it um uh but i i i think i think ultimately the subsidy angle um is is is kind of less than you might think okay you know we we've used that argument for years and actually the reality is is i don't i don't think it's quite as as large as as what we imagine it is i think a big part of the problem is one of scale um there just isn't adequate scale and and and consumers um the consumption um of of of you know let's say um you know maybe 80 percent of the population is is willing to eat meat where you know only 20 is eating plant-based something like that um and so as a result you can see that you just you just can't produce to the kind of scale that would be necessary in order to to bring down cost um so that's one thing but i i think i think um you know governments um i i think uh if you look at how long it takes um if some of these food companies to to gestate you know that when you when you introduce a a completely new concept like cultured meat for example um you know that that that could be an intergenerational um endeavor um it's going to take a long time to get that uh that kind of production to be able to scale to a level where it's actually going to have an impact on on the uh uh industrial um you know animal animal protein industry um but it makes a lot of sense the only way that it can possibly get there is through uh is through through government subsidies um and governments have you know kind of ebbed and and flowed on that if you look at uh here in the Netherlands the government has been fairly supportive of of companies like Mosum Meat in trying to help to foster that industry um but it's a relatively small industry you know looking to produce a kind of scale that that that really would need to would need to be able to make a some kind of an impact in in the the traditional uh you know slaughterhouse uh route that that produces meat today so so and and it i appreciate your comments uh if if if we're thinking about a sequence of events that need to take place for for this trend to to to accelerate what are these dominoes i mean you certainly talked about scale you talked about government support you talked about consumer demand um kind of like what what is the tipping scale what would cause or what would lead to the alternative food industry getting to this same level of scale to drive the same price comparity to traditional food sources um what what what's your perspective i i mean we we're we're talking about food i mean there there's a there's a lot of different foods right i mean so so i i we I that's i guess that's part of the reason why we've been so focused on protein because protein is really one of the most crit critical uh to change in order to really change certainly from an environmental perspective or you know from a from a land usage perspective and things like that i mean i think it's a big one to address um look i i again i i i think um part of the problem is that the quality of the products that are on market today consumers' expectations aren't satisfied by the products that are that are on the market so if you look at plant plant based foods you know plant whether it's whether it's beyond meat or impossible burgers I don't know if you've

SPEAKER_02 44:00

had had the opportunity to eat an impossible burger, but I I can think of a myriad applications for let's say ground beef where if I were to substitute ground beef with ground um beyond um impossible you you simply wouldn't you wouldn't know the difference I mean you just you wouldn't know and so I think to a certain extent there needs to be some openness on the part of consumers to the idea that frequently meat is an ingredient meat is not uh you know a center of the plate uh end in itself and I think you know and and part of it is consumers and part of it is also food service um I'm an investor in a company down in um Indonesia for example and in Indonesia um consumers as you as you pointed out at the beginning of the show um meat alternatives have been around for you know a thousand years you know in in Asia in particular they they eat what they refer to as mock meats and things like that soy-based uh meat analogs that they're they're not something new but uh what is new is this new advent of actually sort of creating a a a meat analog that looks like meat and functions like specifically like a meat replacement that that's not something that that's uh been around for thousands of years and so we we did launch this company in southeast asia um it's it's it's had some successes uh it's got it's got a good following but it but the consumer the the CPG side of the the the business is not adequate to keep the company going i mean it it it it performs it performs okay in retail but we just don't get the same the same kind of traction in a market where people are really aspiring to animal meat right something they haven't you know as the country becomes wealthier people want to eat more meat and so that's that's not that's not a new uh concept so that's what we're competing against um but if you approach the food service providers you know the Sedexos world or the uh the Kumpuses and you know these big food service companies that are doing things like feeding students in schools or government offices or corporate campuses or um or or you know fulfilling major orders for you know let's say even uh things like you know airlines and stuff like that. If you talk to them about producing meals what they're thinking about is you know how do I produce a tasty meal at scale cheaper cheaper per per meal right so you introduce the idea of a blended product to them and if it's a blended ingredient that all they have to do is tear open the bag and dump it in and mix it with the with the beef or the chicken yeah um they're gonna listen they're gonna they're they're definitely gonna um listen to what you have to say so what we found is that actually we've produced um something we call economical protein it's a pre-texturized pre-flavored ingredient that we sell through food service and people love it hotels hotel chains I mean we we just I think yesterday the company was telling me that they they pitched to 120 um general managers for for a hotel chain in Southeast Asia um and even just to get that audience I mean you've got to have something that they're interested in otherwise you're not gonna get their you know their attention right so um so the point is is that you know I I I think um again coming all the way back to the point that I was trying to make if people are willing to first and foremost look at the applications of meat where it's simply an ingredient and not a center of the plate replacement then I think what they might be open to is the idea that actually meat analogs can function well in those applications. But whenever somebody says they they think about they think about replacing a piece of steak with a piece of plant based meat and it's not a one for one replacement. It's not even a one for I mean it's just not a it's it's it's not the same thing.

SPEAKER_01 48:15

But there are certainly plenty of applications where a plant-based meat analog can serve serve the purpose and and you know with without without any you know appreciable um you know loss as far as I'm concerned and that's something that we need to make sense what what so have you guys done any kind of calculations in terms of what would this what would this mean from a sustainability perspective if more companies particularly let's say the food services industry um followed by the hospitality industry if they were to adopt more alternative protein kind of what what what's the impact?

SPEAKER_02 49:03

I I think if you're if you're interested in some of those kinds of numbers what I would steer you toward is the um is the good good food institute they publish all sorts of information uh around sort of the the the potential impact of you know of that kind of transition it's a really interesting site I mean there's a very interesting organization the founder of the a good food institute is a a guy named uh Bruce Friedrich and Bruce used to be one of the trustees uh of the new crop capital trust that we started investing uh early on so yeah quite an interesting guy speaking of speaking of the of the fun again if some if if if if a food tech founder is listening to to this uh podcast episode um what should they pitch you how should they pitch you um where do they find you i mean you're one of the largest food tech investors so it's probably not that hard to find you but kind of like what does an ideal pitch look like to you well i mean first of all i i as you mentioned i'm i'm based in amsterdam i'm in the netherlands um and i and i came over here in 2018 uh in part because a lot of people don't know this but the netherlands is the second or third largest exporter of food worldwide it's a little tiny country but it's but it's a very very food focused uh has one of the one of the um the the leading um uh food tech universities wagen university is you know like like uh uh UC Davis in California is one one of the leading agricultural universities in the world yeah and so it seemed like a sensible place to set up particularly to focus on europe and asia and also you know kind of the the the the technology flow between and among you know sort of north american countries and and and europe and it's it's proven to be very interesting we we raised our second fund here raised about 150 million euros substantially from from foreign investors uh I say foreign from from european and and and Asian investors um as well as north american investors but um and and and many of them were industrial investors so companies uh that that um wanted to use us essentially as a as a um as a cvc a corporate venture arm uh we we helped to source deals for them that that that might be of interest based on their mandates um but anyway uh so so i'm I'm raising a third fund here in europe um and this one is is really looking more at growth stage companies um and there's a couple reasons for that you know i i just was responding to a um to a post on linkedin today uh about um there was somebody pointing out that that there's a real dearth a genuine dearth of of um of of seed capital early capital um focused on on um actually focused on all sorts of technologies in southeast asia um it's really been uh you know a drop off in in early stage investing and i think that that drop off in early stage investing i mean it to a certain extent you have to recognize that you know things like interest rates are much much higher today than they were um you know back when when we raised our our second fund in uh 2021 2022 and so you know there's an economic reason why people aren't necessarily willing to part with money and take more risk you know with early stage companies but I think there's also another point in that is that you know whether it's um whether it's clean tech or whether it's um food tech policy plays a really really important role in the in the likely success of these companies but also the time the gestation period for a lot of these companies is very very long so if you're investing in very early stage companies you know you got you're looking at a you know 10 to potentially 15 year you know investment hold period which is you know that that's much longer than than uh a typical venture fund the venture fund is is 10 years so five year investment period and then a five year uh divestment period so um so if you're coming if you're looking to um if you're looking for investors right now um I I think one of the one of the best things that you can do is you know be at a point where you're nearly self-sustaining in terms of in terms of your revenue so you're not burning a lot of cash on on on working capital and and you're actually in the market for investment so that you can scale your technology or so that you can you know access some some um some log logical milestones that that sort of might align with uh um a timeline that that makes more sense for venture investment makes sense i know that we're coming close to uh the end of the show uh kim if um if if if somebody's looking to to get in touch with you what's the best way do they go to unuvase uh website linkedin kind of how do they get in touch with you they they can find me on linkedin uh i i i i do respond to to uh inquiries on linkedin okay because certainly they can go to my website as well but um and i'm i'm not sure if we actually have email addresses on on uh on uh uh our website but um but yeah linkedin is a good place i think that's good and and if there's no emos on the website it's even better because then it weeds out the the people that are really interested because if you if you want to find an email you can it just takes effort yeah yeah yeah well i i i mean i certainly don't mind sharing my my uh my email um but i mean again you know we're we're really looking at um increasingly we're looking more at the at growth stage companies any particular geography that's uh that's that's of high interest in terms of the growth stage companies well it's funny you should ask i mean you're you're you're you're uh based in canada i do you have companies in canada and canada is a very interesting market right now they're trying to woo a lot of investment into into canada and the food system uh there's a lot a lot of um kind of exchange between uh canada and and and europe right now so um so canada is a is a market of interest um here in europe is our primary focus as well as as well as asia i mean technically we're we're we're global we'll look at we'll look at things almost anywhere um but but at the end of the day i mean probably the bulk of what we'll wind up doing is is in places where we can um where we're in a position to provide support and um and ongoing interaction yeah um i i i I have two investments out in Asia I mentioned uh one is in China and one is uh down in Indonesia and it's it's it's pretty tricky to to try and manage those investments uh as as loan investments so um you know to have a few more investments in in in Asia would be helpful but uh you know to have investments in you know southern uh uh Latin America is is would be challenging for example the question is where can we add the most value how can we use our network and how can we use our um um you know community to to to add value to the companies that we invest in so you you're based out of Amsterdam and and and Europe is known for policies and regulations even in some cases maybe overreaching but when it comes to food I mean I remember two years ago they introduced the common agricultural policy reform like they're continuously tweaking things um do you see europe as kind of the leading force in terms of like the evolution in terms of how we think about food or what's coming from a food perspective I I think um I can't speak to Canada but I but I I I I can certainly say that I I think I I feel as though Europe is much more responsible not only about um you know sort of ensuring the safety of the food that people eat but also looking out for kind of um you know long term long-term um stress points and and things like the you know climate and and and and uh food security and things like that those are those are much much bigger issues I think for Europe and so they have to create policy frameworks around them in ways that that let's say you know North America is is just not driven by by some of those same um by by some of those same same motivations. You know if you look at the regulatory environment I mean some say it's just too restrictive here but actually um and and and in fact it it is a very very challenging uh uh environment if you're trying to get a novel uh ingredient approved for sure but you know the opposite extreme is is the United States where you know you you just walk in and and declare it you know you as self self self-declared uh you know uh generally recognized as safe so um so I think there's a there's quite an extreme and if you look at um uh it's where it's particularly interesting is if you look at the challenges that American companies have trying to get their products into Europe and how many of those products have to be reformulated in order to sell in this market because in their in the formulation that they uh sell in the United States are just not deemed to be healthy.

SPEAKER_01 58:56

Yeah makes sense uh Kim I know that you focus on Europe and Asia is there a colleague of yours that focuses on Canada um we're based out of Canada so not sure a lot of our podcast listeners and followers are from Canada and and as you mentioned there's a lot of organizations like the Bio Enterprise Corporation the uh Canada Commercial Corporation there's a lot of organizations here in Canada they're focusing on on the things that that that you're describing um if if if a Canadian founder is listening do they reach out to you do they reach out to another colleague of yours no you can reach out to me but uh but actually we we have a food tech company based in uh in in British Columbia in Vancouver okay it's a company called Cultivated Food Labs okay very very interesting company and and actually um he he'd be an interesting one for you to have a conversation with as well I would love that I would love that what's we try to do it name yeah Joel Joel what what's that do you mind making uh email introductions I'd be more than happy to yeah he's an interesting guy I think Joel would be an interesting one for you to talk to yeah we'd love it uh I mean British Columbia is a really really interesting province uh yes it's got beautiful mountains but it's got a lot of farm production and obviously most people also from a agriculture perspective most people associate British Columbia with uh with the wine industry with viniculture and viniculture and has some of the best wines in the world obviously the cost of production is massively higher than let's say buying a wine in Spain um but the quality the quality is on par uh the quality is amazing um and so the government is trying very hard to introduce this one interesting company there is um I've drawn a blank on the on the company name but essentially they they use the um once the the grapes are pressed they use the byproduct that's left the the grape skins and it turned this into a food product that it's gonna you point it's additive it's not in in isolation but it's additive to to the food supply and to enhance flavors for flavors for coloring so yeah they do really really well um interesting yeah yeah very interesting okay um I know uh I'll I'll I'll I'll mention it uh I'll mention uh universe to them and see if if they may be of interest um it was a real pleasure to talk to you Kim thank you so much for sharing all of your insights on on food um super excited about uh where where the food industry is is headed and uh hopefully consumers are the driving force behind the the change and evolution in in in what we consume and how we consume it.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:53

Indeed okay thanks Max I appreciate the time it was really interesting talking with you