SPEAKER_00 0:02

Welcome to the Future Ventures podcast on Scaling with Cleary. Today I'm joined by Steve Walsh. He's the founder of Bison International Group and author of Mega 10X Lead. Steve has spent decades around capital, entrepreneurship, business building, and private equity, helping founders think beyond the day-to-day income and total real enterprise value. His work focuses on a question many, many entrepreneurs avoid until unfortunately it's too late. And that is is the business actually built to scale? Attract capital and survive beyond the founder? In this conversation with Steve, we'll unpack what makes a company investor ready, why smart capital is more than money, and how founders can avoid the prolonged stall that keeps good businesses from becoming great ones. Steve, welcome to the stage.

SPEAKER_02 1:03

Thanks a lot for inviting me. You know, it's it's always great to talk to somebody that, especially in entrepreneurship, you know, that I love talking to entrepreneurs uh and investors too. And it's you know, the one thing that you just said is are they are they investable and are they scalable? You know, those are the two answers that I always look at look at a company. Because a lot of times they struggle with that. Um if they're if they're you know ready, ready to scale.

SPEAKER_00 1:33

I agree, agree. I mean, like you have been an investor, you are an investor, like like the most common question that the investor has is like, how big is the time? How big is the market? Is this like a venture vacuum business or is this a lifestyle business? Oh is this a private equity? There's there's nothing wrong with any of these businesses. You just like no like what is your what is your destination? Like where you had it.

SPEAKER_02 1:57

Yeah, I and I think the the one thing I and I'll throw this out right away is that a lot of investors are afraid of private equity. It's the one thing is you know, they've gotten that taste that you know private equity is bad. It's because a lot of times what happens is private equity comes in, says, Hey, we're gonna do three, they want to do three to five, they want to leverage it out, they want to take out, cut the cost completely. And I don't believe that that doesn't work. That model does not work. It it is that model is a model that obviously, and you're seeing it as we see it right now, is that a lot of those companies, they've done that, and it's they're struggling. The model I see is the one where the the private equity comes in as the part as a partnership.

SPEAKER_01 2:46

Yeah, okay.

SPEAKER_02 2:47

And and they want to grow the company, you know, they want to grow it as bad as the the founder or the entrepreneur does. And and I think it's it's and it has to be that way. It has to be as a partnership. Um, and then it's a matter of like, okay, yeah, what's the founder want to do, where they want to go? You know, a lot of times the founder will say, hey, they're at, let's say they're at uh 10 million, and they say, you know, I want to get to 30. I said, I always say, if you're at, if you're at 10, let's go to 100 and see how that looks. Work backwards from there, and then we can see, you know, and that's really what it comes down to. And when you're doing this, you work backwards. You you say, I want to do 100 million, and it's doable, it's very doable. It's a matter of like, how's that look? What's the entrepreneur have to do? You know, and they may not be in the set the right seat. It's possible. Um and a lot of times the the entrepreneur is the one that's like, you know, I'm so tired. I didn't, you know, I'm struggling. Well, maybe they're not, maybe they need to get out of their own way, you know, that's what it comes down to.

SPEAKER_01 3:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 3:59

And so I I always look, I always ask, you know, entrepreneurs right up front where they want to go. You know, that's the number one thing I ask. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 4:09

One of the most common exercises that we put out where found is true, and and the clients that we work with is called a Merlin exercise, Merlin being like the the little magician. Um, and it's like, if you can project yourself five years out, what does the company look like? Yeah, um, because then we can work backwards, kind of like to your point. It's like, okay, if you need to be at a hundred uh 10x from like 10 to 100 million dollars in annual revenue, well, the company would look drastically different. So let's uh reverse engineering. Like, what are the things that we need to put in place, build in place, equity, team, processes, technology, people, like governance, whatever. But it's gonna look different. But I agree, and it is I mean, the reason why we call the the the our podcast scaling with clarity is because a lot of it starts with like having clarity. Where are you going? Because without knowing where you're going, how how are you going to get there? Right.

SPEAKER_02 5:08

Yeah, and I and I I like you know, I always say is that entrepreneurs are sometimes the ones that don't want to ask for help. You know, they're the ones that a lot of times they think they that shouldn't say they know everything, but they they have done it their way for so long, a lot of times. And and so I always say when you're when you're coming in and you're bringing capital in, uh it a lot of times bringing in is smart capital. Bringing that, you know, there's two different things. You can either bring in companies of capital that's smart, or you can bring in capital that is is dumb. And the dumb capital, it all it does is a lot of times frustrates the entrepreneur because all they do is expect a check, and that's it.

SPEAKER_01 5:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 5:55

But uh, but smart capital, they'll bring things to them, you know, they'll bring in people, they'll bring in systems, um, they'll bring in contacts. I've had um when I was writing my I just came out with my second book, The Black Book for High Net Worth Investors. One of the the main entrepreneurs that I interviewed for that book, uh, and he's he's right on about this. He said, one of the things I used I would do for entrepreneurs, what I would do is I would get them in front of people that would grow their business. If that was, and they had a lot of contacts that they were able to get that that company in front of, and it grew their business a lot faster and a lot smoother.

SPEAKER_00 6:44

Okay, okay. Um, I couldn't agree more. Um, and and we've seen this, we work with a ton of investors, and uh the most common thing that the investors would tell us is that the good deals are highly competitive, everyone wants to be on the good deals, and so the way that they they try to stand out is like what are the the additional things that they can do to drive value for the organization or help them accelerate or whatever it might be. And it often comes down to how big is your network, who do you know, who can you introduce me? Can you get me like if if I'm pursuing enterprise clients, can you get me into enterprise? If you're pursuing government or military defense, can you get me into this? It's it's all of this, the money just a component, and all the other stuff comes into play.

SPEAKER_02 7:26

Yeah, and I think a lot of times too, the investor becomes like an ambassador, you know, they're the ones that are gonna be like knocking on doors for you. It's like, you know, if there's someplace, they're like a lot of times these investors have been entrepreneurs, and so they know what it's like, and so they're willing to like knock on doors for and they're uh the classic ambassador, and that's where the that's really what really separates a great investor to one that is gonna come in there and say, Hey, I just expect this check, and I expect it every month or every quarter, one of the two. So um, and that's that's where a partnership comes into play because it is truly a partnership, and then it's a matter of you have to look at it, how does that entrepreneur want to work? You know, the a lot of times I've seen is they they come in and they're they've been working 80 hours a week, and so I always say that you know, you need to take yourself out of the roles that you've been probably doing that you shouldn't be doing, and so you look at those those roles that they've been doing it for so long, and they're like hating to give it up. And I'm like, you just have to get out of your own way, and so but it but it is it is it's a puzzle, you know, that's what it comes down to, and the puzzle pieces move, and and so it's a matter of like, how do you want to look um 10 years from now, or I would say even three years from now?

SPEAKER_00 8:54

Yeah. So Steve, I just want to double click on what you just said, and and we have a scene now, you know, affirm that uh it it has become in everyone's mind that never do the things that uh never do things that others can do for you. Um, but what other things come in and stand in the way of uh of founders beyond kind of like being able to let go of things or delegate or like what other what would prevent somebody from getting on the 10x training?

SPEAKER_02 9:22

You know what it is, ego. The the number one thing is I think it's a lot of times it's the entrepreneur says to themselves, I can't find somebody that can do as good as me. And that's I would guarantee you that there's 10 people out there that can do it probably better than they can. And so the one thing it is what happens when you keep on telling yourself, I can never find anybody that can do as good as me. You're gonna find some people that are can't do and so that's what happens is that they have that mindset. It is the shift, you know. When I wrote the first book, uh Make the 10X Leap, the main the shift has to be the mindset first. It starts starts with the entrepreneur of how they want to look, how's the company want to be, how did how's their team and culture need to be?

SPEAKER_00 10:14

In in in in in the book, I wanted to unpack this idea. Um, the mindset shift. What's the hardest thing about the mindset shift? And it kind of like how do you approach it with success? How do you actually go through the shift?

SPEAKER_02 10:30

I you know, a lot of times it's it's the mindset is you one, you have to have a learning mindset to be begin with, and you have to let I almost say not say kill the ego, but you have to let the ego go. And it's a matter of like what what does that look like? You know, a lot of times entrepreneurs, I've had, you know, the ones that are fun to work with, there's that they do have that learning mindset and they're willing to listen. And I I always say, hey, I don't know everything, but I make sure that I get you in front of the right people to get you the right answers.

SPEAKER_00 11:07

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 11:08

And so I think it's a lot of times is if you're able to change the mindset of, hey, I'm gonna allow somebody to come in and help as a partner, is not as not somebody that's gonna take over, because that's not what I expect to do. Um, but it's a matter of like what pieces or what things do we need, and that's where I go back to start from the where we want to go and work backwards. It's a lot easier to do that. Then I know, and then from there, it's a matter of like, what is the pieces that you need to put in place? It's a lot easier to work through that because every time you do that, um, it changes because it's never a straight line, you know that it's it's it is you know, you go through curves and and it it becomes like I said, it becomes a big puzzle.

SPEAKER_00 12:02

So I want to play on this idea and just let's just use like a house renovation analogy. Like, you know, everyone tells you that like the money, if you're gonna spend money in your house, invest it in a kitchen and bathroom. Kind of like if you think about the company, where should founders invest most of their where should they allocate capital? Where should they invest most of their time and attention to?

SPEAKER_02 12:25

I think the the one thing I I've always seen is, and this is what happens a lot is when companies bring in capital, all of a sudden they they hair flush with capital and they start spending on a lot of things, a lot of things that don't matter. And so, you know, it's kind of like um the person that gets the lottery, wins the lottery. What do they do? They spend money on everything. Um, so I always go back to uh your customer. You really got to know your customer inside and out, probably more so than they know themselves sometimes. But the the customer is really important. Um, once you know the customer, then you know what they need from you. Yeah, and then from there it's a matter of like, okay, what can I do to have them buy my products? You know, whatever the product is, um, you're not forcing them, forcing to buy your product. It's just a it's a I guess a very easy sale because your product is is pro is solving a problem for them. And that problem is, whatever the problem is, you're solving it for them. As you do that, the marketing becomes so much easier. And I would say, you know, the one thing is the marketing is really important. You know, when you're doing very, you know, when you're getting out to customers and you want more customers, what is the one way you need to do that? Marketing. And I think uh a lot of companies think they have a great product, but problem is they probably do have a great product, nobody knows about it. So they have to think about what is it that they need to do. And marketing is I I believe that marketing is just more than just getting online and and doing Facebook and you know, Amazon, and um it's bringing basically bringing your customer into the your story and figuring out what is that they they need from you.

SPEAKER_01 14:25

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 14:26

And then from there, it's like spending, spending it, then then it becomes easier on what needs to be the money needs to be spent on. You know, that is do I need more people? Where's the type of people I need? Um, a lot of times what happens is you'll you'll bring in a person and they they may not be the person that you need to be, you know, in that spot in that spot for whatever reason. Uh a lot of times what companies struggle with is hiring. And I I go back to the one thing, what's your culture like? How do you how do you keeping your c your employees happy? Because it's no different, and how do you keeping your customers happy? You got to do the same thing with your your employees. How do you keep them happy? And it's not usually money, money is one thing, it's all the other things that go along with it. That culture that you you're gonna form is gonna be just as important for your employees as it is your customers, and then from there, it's a matter of like what systems do I need to be in place, and that systems everything will almost show up because as you grow, you need a better system, you need more employees, and and then you also need uh, you know, the bring in the capital, and that what's that capital look like? The capital is a lot of different ways. You can either finance it, you can either uh borrow it. I would say about borrowing, and I always go back to the bank, you know, banks will borrow you money all the time, but they really don't help you grow your business. I you know, they they'll all they want is the check every month, and they but they don't really help you grow the business. So that's where I come into play is that I'm there, I want to be, I want to grow their business just as much as they do, and that's where it's fun. You know, the fun is when working with entrepreneurs that can be um that see see the path, you know, the pathway, you know, that a lot of times you don't see that path because it's so big, you know, a lot of times it's just so big, but um I'd rather shoot for the stars, and and maybe I might not get close, uh maybe I'll get as close.

SPEAKER_00 16:53

Agreed, agreed. I mean, like it and we've seen this in our conversations with a lot of founders and a lot of investors, there's uh there's definitely a shift occurring in the moment where a lot more uh, but including investors, um, particularly on the private equity side. I mean, private equity side could have uh a bad name, but what I'm seeing from from the dealings that we have with P firms, a lot of them have adopted more of a buy and hold mentality rather than let me buy, got it out, sell it. Like this is at least I'm not seeing those firms. It's more like like your mentality, your mindset that you bring is like, okay, let me buy a good company and with with my help, with my money, with with my expertise, let me make it into a great company. That's the mentality that I'm seeing, rather than like, oh, here's good, like I'm gonna you know, buy it and sell it for parts or whatever, because the parts are more valuable than the sum. Like, yeah, yeah, it's interesting.

SPEAKER_02 17:48

That's the old, you know, but I think that's where you see a lot of that mentality. The business owners always, you know, you run across a lot of business owners that think that way because that's all they've heard. Because it's what it what do you usually hear in the news? All the bad things, you know. You don't hear all the good ones, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 18:07

Rage engage, right? Like it's negative news sells good. I mean, I would love to read more positive news, but they don't attract the engagement. It's kind of like simply you go to a restaurant, how likely are you to leave a good review versus how likely are you to leave a negative review?

SPEAKER_02 18:24

Right, exactly.

SPEAKER_00 18:25

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 18:27

But I I think the the one thing I would say is like entrepreneurs, uh, if they really want to get it so that it's a legacy, you know, a lot entrepreneurs are all different, you know, they they either want a legacy or they want um they want more time away from their job, you know, all kinds of things. I think the the one thing is a lot of times, if you look at it in Ben Hardy's book, you know, 10x is better than 2x, um, he says that you know, the really is that um a lot of times just you got to get out of your own way and and you want more time away from your business than working in your business. And so that you can be more creative. And that being said, that means then that usually the founder is the visionary. I want somebody in there as an integrator, I want somebody in there that's actually doing the work because a lot of times what happens is you get the visionary, has great ideas, throws it at their team, and the team all of a sudden can't get it done. But if you have an integrator, somebody actually there do it, that's where really it works really well. You have somebody that actually is in the weeds with the team, pulling the triggers, and the vision, those two work really well together. Um, sure. If you as a strong company, I like to see that that group of the visionary and integrator. That those two guys or girls make a huge difference in a company, and so it but it's that's where I I'd say even if even if they don't have one, I always suggest bring one in.

SPEAKER_00 20:11

For sure. I I I couldn't agree more. I I spent many, many years with uh with Deloitte and EY, and uh the firms are different but the same. Um, they all have kind of similar similar frameworks. And in consulting, we had this uh pyramid uh where governance sits at the top, people below, processes below, and uh technology or or systems at the bottom, the kind of the foundation. And uh what we have found, um I mean this company's existed for a hundred plus years is you start at the top, but you you do need somebody that's that that translates the vision because the founders is typically very visionary, like they see the big picture, they know where they go. But that's why they have chief operating office. They have somebody that's kind of like, okay, well, I'm gonna turn this vision into something that's that's actually sustainable. Um adding the layer of people, then building out a process, so you just need that systemic uh discipline execution in order to translate the vision into reality.

SPEAKER_02 21:13

Yeah, I I've had really good experiences with that. Um the story that I have is the the story was um I sat down with the founder, uh it was uh he was the visionary, and then the integrator, um, they sat down with him for dinner one night. The story was totally different between the two. Yeah, the visionary said, you know what, this was awesome. They had sold just sold the company, and they and so he was saying, I can't, this was awesome, I want to do it again. He was like, he was ready to do it. Integrator was like, you know, man, this was hard. I want to take off some time. And so his his thing was, you know, I'm gonna take some time, I might retire. And so uh literally what happened though, that the visionary was such a great sales guy, he got the integrator said. Hey, we're gonna do this again, and now he's back to doing it again. And they they're a great team, and that's what a great team looks like is that you have those two that work off each other, they may not get along all the time. It's like any, it's like a marriage, you know. They but it's but at least they they're going the right direction, they're going the same way, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 22:22

Okay, uh, I mean, like there's so many different examples, and they there's a saying that trend comes from diversity because um if if if you don't have uh people with diverse set of skills, you get you you only know what you know. I mean, there's like David Epstein that that wrote the book called Range, like you know, all of the disruptive innovations have come from people that yes, that is important, like you know, being an expert in a particular field, but having that range of expertise, and you can build the range by having people with complementary skills that they're different from one another. That's that's diverse, and so I what you're saying absolutely residents. Um, what are like like you you spoke about cultures being super important? Have you seen examples within your portfolio that you're like? This company has an amazing culture. And are you able to give examples as to what made this culture exact uh yeah?

SPEAKER_02 23:16

I think the the one thing here, I'll just give you a great here's a great example. So there was a company that it was a manufacturing company. Um, they had they were doing the helmets, uh bike helmets. Okay, and so the the culture was really a really good culture, but the culture was so strong that the people on the line, uh you talked to them and they were really excited about working there. Yeah, but here's the thing that really resonated with them. He he I was talking to this guy and he said, you know, there's one reason I work here, and he pointed at this board. And this board was a lot of letters from customers that he got, they got saying, Thanks for save my life. Thanks for, you know, thanks for saving our daughter's life or son's life. Yeah, he pointed at both he was proud to work there because of that, and that was the one thing that really resonated with me is that that culture was so strong that even at the people at the at the that level were proud to work there. And it's it's it's interesting when you look at that, when you look at a company like that, they become just as good of ambassadors as your customers do. And because they sell your business, and that attracts other people that want to work there because that's because that's where they they say it's fun to work here, and that's you know, that's really what it looks like. It's that part is the fun part of of bringing in, you know, I would say a company that has a strong culture, but then it shows up not just in the company, but shows up on the customers too, yeah, because of that.

SPEAKER_00 25:03

I I mean I couldn't agree more with you. Um, like this this famous parable. Uh I don't know if it's true or if it's not. Back in the in a Kennedy area when he decided we're going to land a man on the moon. Um, and somebody asked the janitor at NASA, what is your job? And he said, My job is to put a man on the moon. That's my job. Is that culture um that has to permeate throughout the organization, that everyone has a collective mission mission that they're they're stewarding towards.

SPEAKER_02 25:34

Right. And I think that's the thing, you know, that it it goes from the top down. And you know, that the cult culture is that the culture, there's no difference between that janitor to the the one up top. You know, they're they're all the they work in the right direction. And and and those are the ones that you know, those companies are fun to work with because um, and they're not, you know, the thing is a lot of times you have to when you look at a company, maybe they don't know what culture really means.

SPEAKER_01 26:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 26:04

And so then it's a matter of like, how can you show that to them and how you can present that to them and and how it's how it's important because a nine to five job, somebody going just going to the job, picking up a check is not fun. But if a job, a job becomes more than a job if you truly believe in the company and the direction it's going. I always say if you can show the employees why you're why what you're doing is so important in the world, you know, why you're what you're doing. And that's a matter of like having them actually go out and see your product out in the field. You know, what is it doing for the people out there? Uh, and what types of things are they able to see? And that's where you really show the employees, you know, that you they're just make they're not just making a widget, they're making something that's very important for the world.

SPEAKER_00 27:02

You know what surprises me? So um I I I kind of uh eluded like a a lot of my career has been spent working for big, big enterprise, like companies with thousands of employees. Um the surprising fact for me is that the the goal setting process in big companies actually not very good. And and like in the in the technology space where where we work, um there's the OKR from the objectives and carries out the John Doe, the like from Intel, uh popularize and now all the technology companies. But if you have clarity and alignment around here's the vision, and here's how everyone's efforts contribute to this vision, you can accomplish amazing things. Oh, yeah. Um, but I I'm I don't know why a big enterprise struggles with this.

SPEAKER_02 27:57

I think it's because there's so many layers, you know, there's so many layers from the top down, and I think that's probably one of them. Uh and the other thing is too, the mission is maybe too vague. Yeah, that that vague, that the mission is very vague, and it's not it doesn't really mean anything to anybody. It just it's words on a piece of paper, you know. Yeah, it's a it's words on a piece of paper, and it doesn't mean a lot. So I think that's a lot of things when you see that in a big and the other thing is too, in a large company, it's really hard to turn that ship, you know. That the the one thing is when you're looking at a big company, and that's why smaller companies they can turn very easy, and their culture, you know, they they have a strong culture. Um, but it it always goes back to the top, you know. That's the the one thing I'd say is how is the how is everybody work, you know, from the top down? And and then it's also Billy Accountability becomes very important. Um, I look at it as you know, no, it's no different than the person on the top have accountability and the person very bottom have accountability. I don't it makes a huge difference, but that countability is it's almost it's not a score sheet, it's something that you are trying to get to one, you're you're trying to go to one you know end game, if it if there is an end game. So it's kind of it helps, it really helps to get everybody in the right direction, the right bus, and the right understanding of what this company is doing. Yeah, so if everybody takes, you know, that's the other thing is too, if everybody has kind of their own thought thinking of where they're going, um, you know, the company doesn't move very well. Yeah, you know, a lot of times when you have people competing against each other inside the company, it just doesn't work.

SPEAKER_00 30:02

Okay, okay. Yeah, it's um we we use an analogy because like uh I think that uh visual analogies work extremely well. So we when we talk to founders, we say, hey, the role of the CEO, if the the founder, the CEO, whoever, whoever's in charge is to be like, I don't know if you've done Dragon Boat Racing, but there's one person that that sits at the drums or hollers like do this. And the team you achieve the ultimate velocity, the maximum velocity when everyone is rowing the boat at exactly the same pace, with exactly this or roughly exactly the same strength because you avoid any kind of disturbance in the water. Even if you have one person that's doing their best, pushing harder, it creates disturbance for the person behind them. So it just it's synchronizing the effort within the organization.

SPEAKER_02 30:49

Yeah, yeah, and that's I think, but that's you know, when you get a large company, the departments have to really start talking to each other. A lot of times you have departments that are kind of, I would say, um siloed off. And you know, that's that's never good because then you're having one company that's you know, one department's thinking one way and the other department's thinking another way. If you're if you really want to go the right direction, you should have all departments working together. But how do you bring those silos? What have you seen that works? I think it comes down, you know what comes down to communication. It's it comes down to communication. It's it's a matter of like understanding what the department their department does, you know, because a lot of times they always say, Well, I don't understand what a county does. It is, you know, yeah. Understanding what the purpose is of the department and what's what is that that piece of the whole company does. I think it but it's all comes down to one thing is it's communication.

SPEAKER_00 31:51

Yeah. I could could couldn't agree more. I mean, the the the the classic tension between sales and marketing. Like where is the revenue coming? Is it because of sales, or is it because like is it because the people that are kind of generating the marketing qualified leads, or is it the people that are actually converting this into sales? Like, right, um, yeah. And if they I mean, quite often a lot of organizations will bring sales and marketing under one umbrella because then you're living with with all of it rather than like, well, I'm responsible for marketing, then marketing doesn't doctor sales, and sales is based off right.

SPEAKER_02 32:27

Well, because they they they're wondering why that you know the marketing's not doing what it should be doing, or the sales, yeah. But then the the marketing is like, hey, we're giving you the leads, why aren't you selling the you know exactly? And so there's that fight between the two, but yeah, but they actually but it like you said, you have to understand that they have to work together that to and understand. I think that like I said, that's where it comes down to is like, hey, this is what we're doing, and this is why we're doing it, because a lot of times they just don't know why.

SPEAKER_00 32:57

Yeah, yeah. And so like I uh back when I was in consulting, there was a company, uh a telecom company that went on strike and big organization, thousands of employees, and obviously the then the unionized employees walked out, and then all of the management team, including uh suite of consultants, came in and tried to run the company, and we look at processes like okay, I see the process, I can follow the process. Why are we doing it? And so literally, literally, the process of like the the the lockout I can't remember was like probably two months. In in that two months, we streamlined the entire process because people were doing things because that's you know, the person that was doing in the role before was doing it, right? And then you look at it, it's like, well, that doesn't make any sense. Why why are we doing this?

SPEAKER_02 33:44

Right. Well, a lot of you know, you look at that, and it's like because we've been doing it this way for so long, and it's like, you know, why change? And like, yeah, well, maybe you should be changed because you know, I always say the one thing is if your competitor's doing it, maybe you shouldn't be. You know, that that's the one thing you look at is how many things can I do that outcompete, you know, my competitor. And and a lot of times it's a matter of like, what's the sales, what's the marketing doing, what what are the things that they're doing that um they could be doing something completely different. And right now, I think disrupting industry is becoming more and more common, and it's it is something that you're seeing more of that out think outside the box. You know, thinks, you know, thinking about sales, think outside thinking about marketing, think outside the box. Um, and then I go back to the one thing I always say is that white glove service is I think it's becoming more and more important than ever to have that white glove service, that connection you have with your customer, yeah. That that is something that you know that customer will come back every time because you're doing such an awesome job for them. Um, it's that way that you make them feel.

SPEAKER_01 35:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 35:01

Yeah. I mean, it's the same, like you people don't remember what you said to them, but they remember how you made them feel.

SPEAKER_02 35:07

Right, right. And that's where it comes, you know, that that's and in this day and age with AI the way it is, you know, people are thinking automation is gonna be really important. I think it's gonna be more important to have human connections. The human connections come to be more important than ever. Because if you look at looking at people that are gonna be on Zoom, who can I trust? And the trust is gonna be very important right now, and that's where that white glove service comes into play because people become uh more connected to you because they trust you, and they they have that that connection that you've made them feel feel so good that um they're gonna just keep on coming back to you.

SPEAKER_00 35:52

So, Steve, um you've written two books. The second one is coming out, you've been a practitioner for a long time. What are the ways currently that are available to companies to all compete? So, in order to get the 10x, you have to be obviously better than your competition.

SPEAKER_02 36:11

I think a lot of times find a different category. You know, the the one thing I think look at is a lot of companies think that they should be competing in that in that space. And you know, look at here's a good example. There's 10 companies that are doing selling the same thing on Amazon. You think should be the 11th? Probably not. So look at the look at the category that you're in compared to your competitors and see if there's a way to make your category a different category. So make yourself different than your competitors completely. And I think that's really going to be the thing is going forward, is how can I be a disruptor in my category? Because price, if you're if you're trying to compete with pricing or you know, just doing it better, that doesn't work. You know, my products better, my you know, we're doing it, prices cheaper, whatever it is. The the cat if you can find like a category, a different category, make your own category and just go that direction, and then look at something completely different than what it looks like. Um and then competition becomes irrelevant. You don't have to worry about competition.

SPEAKER_00 37:28

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's kind of like, do you want to be a blue ocean? You want to do you want to be in a red ocean or you want to like you know, go and swim in a blue ocean where you're you're not competing with all of these other companies. Makes sense, right?

SPEAKER_02 37:42

Yeah, and that's that's where the marketing comes into play, and that's where the sales come obviously come into play, really important. Um, but you know, that's that's where everybody understands the direction they're going. Um, you know, so that's where I look at companies, maybe a little bit different than a lot of companies.

SPEAKER_00 38:01

Makes sense. Um founders and leadership team. How do you know if uh if if a founder or leadership team of a of a company has the chops to get the 10x?

SPEAKER_02 38:13

Uh you know what, you can do it right away. Usually typically, I think it's a lot of times what I do is when I when I interview a company, um the lot of the things that you do is you it's a matter of like it's it's a lot of um you sit down with them and actually ask them the questions, ask them the hard questions. And if they start putting up roadblocks and a lot of things like that, um, you know, the reason why we can't do it is because of this. If they start saying a lot of that type of stuff, probably not going to be the ones that are gonna be able to get you there. Yeah. But but if if they're positive or if they're if there's like, you know, we know we can get there, we just we just don't know how to. I I'm I'm willing to work with that company because at least he knows we can get there. He's got the idea. He just wants he needs more direction. And so that's really what it looks like. It is a matter of just sitting down and talking to them. Uh you know, you'll see it. Uh it it shows up in a lot of and then here's the other thing is too talking to employees is makes a huge difference, also. You know, the employees will tell you um what they think, and so that's you you you really see it, you can see it in the company itself.

SPEAKER_00 39:35

Makes sense, makes sense. Uh, one of my favorite books of all time is uh is a book by uh um US Navy Navy uh Admiral. Uh his name is Michael Abrachev and the book is called It's Your Ship. It's gonna like how did he take the the worst ship in the Navy and turn it into the best ship and just talking to the to the Navy to to to to the sealman on on the ship? It's like hey, what ideas do you have? Listen to everybody in terms of like in the and it started off with like okay, we had to take the the ship out of commission for two, three months every five years to you know repaint rusting bolts. It's like okay, well one of the one of the sealments is like, well, why don't we just uh use stainless steel bowls that's why we don't have to repaint? So just these little incremental improvements, these little ideas that uh over time add up to a big thing.

SPEAKER_02 40:26

Yeah, the employees will tell you some of the things that are you know they're they're struggling with, the problems that they're struggling with. Yeah, if management can understand that that they need to listen to their employees, because then obviously the employees are they're doing the stuff all day, every day. And so they're the ones that will give you a lot of the information that you need, yeah. And and that's also to uh will tell you the leader if he's willing to listen, and that's the other that's really important.

SPEAKER_00 40:58

Yeah, but they all say that they're serving leaders, they all say that they listen.

SPEAKER_02 41:03

I I you know that you don't see it that way. I don't see it that way because you know if you sit down with the employees, you'll you'll know. And yeah, and I always interview the employees, and I also sit down with obviously management. Management will tell you what you need to know right away. Yeah, of like how do they how they listen, what do they what what what are they gonna do? Um, and who's important, you know, what's it what's important to them?

SPEAKER_00 41:32

Okay, okay, okay. Steve, from from an investment perspective, uh, I mean, there's just so much hype around AI, but like, is there one type of business most investors are overlooking at the moment because just not fashionable or just because in comparison to any kind of AI investment? But but you believe that that business or category has the potential to produce excellent outcomes?

SPEAKER_02 41:56

You know, I think you're looking at pretty much every area this is getting looked at right now. Um, I think if you look at now the space that I would say that you're probably looking at right now is that 55 and the 80-year-old that has a business that's really he has been in the business for so long and he's been running it for so long. That business is gonna be the that turnover that you're seeing because one, they don't probably have a family member or don't want to sell it to the family member. Yeah, the opportunity right now is unlimited in that's in those in that space because there's so many of them. And I would say that those companies, they've been doing it for the same way for so long. And AI right now is is very new, and a lot of those companies have not taken that on, or they've taken it on very little, or um, you know, that's gonna be the other the other issue is what what is AI gonna disrupt and what is AI just gonna make more problems. Um I would say looking at that, but that's gonna be the opportunity is right now is is that okay that you're seeing seeing companies that in the manufacturing space, um, you know, there's there's a lot of companies that have that, um, that like that, and they've they're ready to sell, they just don't know what who to sell to. And they don't know, you know, the other opportunities are gonna just gonna be um I would say if you're looking at you some of the some of the smaller, smaller cities, smaller towns, yeah. Um, those are probably great areas to be in because nobody's looking at those areas. Yeah. So so those are the the areas you want to look at is but it the opportunity is gonna be uh unlimited right now. Okay. Next 10 years for sure.

SPEAKER_00 43:58

Yeah. I mean even even Even for our fun tissue, like uh we invest in software and technology companies that serve the manufacturing, defense, and industrial uh sectors. And so we we kind of think like just pure numbers, 70% of capital has gone into the coastal areas of North America. Um naturally, you can think who is who is sitting on the Pacific coast. Um and uh the other stats uh is uh the valuations in the coastal areas 30% higher than the industrial heartland of Canada and America, right? So see you you have amazing opportunities at below um uh uh below market prices compared to like coastal areas. So um I think there's a ton, there are a ton of opportunities to be had there. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 44:44

I and I believe that too, because like you said, east and west coasts, I mean you see that the money flows in those areas, um, but the opportunity is gonna is, I think, in the the center. You know, those are gonna be the companies that the uh you look at the boring companies, you know, the companies that nobody really looks at, you know, that yeah, those are the and they're just as great, and you can you can grow them just as easy as any other company.

SPEAKER_00 45:12

Absolutely, absolutely. And Steve, I believe you're calling Iowa home.

SPEAKER_02 45:16

Yeah, yeah. I'm in Des Moines, Iowa, and it's okay. You know, I've I've uh I was a farm boy, so I grew up on a farm, and my entrepreneurship started when I was very young. I was uh started um fixing motorcycles. Okay, and I would fix motorcycles and sell them when I was 15. So that was kind of that's when I started. My dad got me into fixing motorcycles, and then um that was kind of the the thing, and and that's where I started.

SPEAKER_00 45:45

What's your favorite motorcycle to to work on, and what's your favorite motorcycle to ride on?

SPEAKER_02 45:51

You know, the thing is I haven't ridden in quite a while, but um, I did a lot of on the Yamaha's and Hondas is where I fixed, I did a lot of work on those, and they were very easy to work with. Most of the the bus, the uh I would say a lot of them were dirt, a lot of dirt bikes, and very easy to work on. Um, the the one thing I'd say are the ones now, um, it's totally different now, but they're still fun. I still love getting out trail ride. If I get on a bike, that's that's where I want to do. Street street bikes are great, but I do like getting on the trail.

SPEAKER_00 46:27

Yeah, yeah. Is this your contemplative time? What's that? Is this your contemplative time, or is it you too much adrenaline to be thinking about anything?

SPEAKER_02 46:38

Yeah, I just got so much stuff going on right now that you know that getting on a motorcycle is not gonna be one of my things. I do a lot of hunting right now, so that's kind of the way I think. So I enjoy that.

SPEAKER_00 46:50

Understood. Uh, I know we're covered in time, Steve, but I I like to close with a choice of a question. Um, what's the nicest thing anybody has ever done for you? And or what's the best advice you have ever received?

SPEAKER_02 47:05

You know, uh best advice is never see don't be afraid to fail. Okay. I think that the one thing is I uh I had a uh um a good mentor that was like, he's like, don't be afraid to fail. And so um the nicest thing I would say um anytime somebody sits sits down and it has a just a great conversation, you know, that has a cup of coffee, and and it doesn't have to be with any any any business about business, but that's ones that I've had the great experiences sitting down with an entrepreneur or investor that is done some amazing things, and sitting down just asking them what's going on, what what did they do that got them to where they were at? And that was that's been the ones that I've experienced the best. I just did that. Um I had a uh this was an investor that um him had a really good, he he had just gotten a check for 1.1 billion. Wow, he just sold a company, and he sitting down with him was a great experience because we had a great rapport together. Um, but the one thing I learned from him is that what made his his company so great was one person. He did a hire, he did one hire that made the difference between an okay company to a great company, and it was because he saw the opportunity to to hire this one person, and that was the one thing I I learned sitting down with him was just a great experience, just because I learned a lot about you know what it took for him to get to the where he's at.

SPEAKER_00 48:55

So that was I would say I enjoyed that. Those conversations are incredible. Um is the when is the new book come out?

SPEAKER_02 49:05

So the new book is out, but we're doing a launch uh July 21st. So we're gonna we're doing a launch big launch the 21st of July. And so um that's that's what we're we're gonna have. Um we're having actually a party here, but we're gonna have uh availability of people being able to buy the book online, very inexpensive. And and so just reach out to me. Uh you know, we can get get you on the list. Um, and this go at Steve at BisonEquity Group.com. Uh, we can give you uh you know a free sample of what we you expect with the book. Go from there.

SPEAKER_00 49:45

Amazing, Steve. It was an absolute pleasure having you on and and uh insights.

SPEAKER_02 49:50

Yeah, it's great talking to you, Maxim. You know, I I always like I said, I always enjoy these when you get great rapport and and have fun, you know, going back and forth of what what your experience has been.

SPEAKER_00 50:03

Uh 100%. And even though I have uh questions they prepare for the interviews, I always like to just cut a riff, and I always like to just let the conversation naturally enroll rather than like, well, let's know we're gonna talk about this and that.

SPEAKER_02 50:16

Right, right. Yeah, yeah, I think that's the best. I I like it better because it's not structured as so much, and so then you you get to learn a little bit about each other.

SPEAKER_00 50:26

Okay, okay. Fabulous. Thanks, Steve. All right, thanks a lot.

SPEAKER_02 50:30

Good talking to you.