SPEAKER_00 0:05

Skiing technology is one challenge. Delivering consistently across dozens of hundred or hundreds of physical locations is another challenge altogether. Today I'm joined by Boris Bastner, founder and CEO of OKOS. He is entrepreneur joining his evolve from smart home energy efficiency and utility partnerships to technology-enabled enterprise security deployments across North America. We'll explore what it takes to turn field service into a repeatable operating system, standardizing quality, coordinating a distributed workforce using AI without losing accountability and recognizing when the next stage of growth requires a fundamental change in a business model. Welcome to Scaling with Clarity, Boris.

SPEAKER_02 0:55

Hi, thank you.

SPEAKER_00 0:57

So why don't you just give us a bit of a rundown or trip down memory? How did uh how did you start a business? Uh as I was preparing for the podcast, it seems like you started in home automation. Um, and obviously, majority of your customers now are enterprise. So, how did the business come about?

SPEAKER_02 1:18

Yeah, I first started the company six years ago, uh, really in the smart home space. So think about door locks, thermostats, uh sensors and units, and we did a lot of apartment uh retrofits and uh energy efficiency kind of deployments. As we grew and managed more and more of these clients uh and REITs and uh real estate developers, we had to find a solution for mass deployments, uh the ability to install thousands of these devices across North America uh without being necessarily on site, without having a foreman or project manager on site. And so we developed an app in-house to have full remote project management, remote diagnostics right in the app that uh allowed us to really install anywhere with uh local labor force. So we became more of a gig economy platform, uh at the Uber of installations, if you will, being able to deploy these technicians uh anywhere across the country um and oversee that quality and the uh tracking the speed of delivery and the quality of the installs. And as soon as COVID hit, and through that, the up and downs of COVID, uh unfortunately the residential market kind of dried down for us. It really dried up all of a sudden in one summer, and we had to pivot. And so we pivot to commercial security. We went all in uh mainly in security cameras, these same low voltage technicians on our app with the same app, with the same project managers, could now manage to install security cameras. And so far, we've installed over 60,000 devices uh all across North America, some in Europe. Uh we've really grown the company exponentially since our beginnings, but uh it's been a fun journey.

SPEAKER_00 3:36

So I'm curious. Um you're working with a very large distributed workforce. You mentioned 60,000 device installations, 750 certified technicians. How do you build? Well, obviously, the two the two questions for me top of mind is like, how do you ensure quality um when you work with a distributed workforce? And how do you build a consistent couch and standard of accountability amongst the all the technicians who are for you? They're not in the same office. Um and I mean, even in some cases, they may not even meet one another.

SPEAKER_02 4:12

No, exactly. Um, so we really went through technology, right? Tech-enabled services is uh the way to go when you want to ensure that consistent quality throughout. And so we break it down uh kind of an IKEA checklist, right? They have to follow the checklist. We break it down step by step by step. Uh now with the latest iterations of our app, uh we have AI nowadays, right? So we have AI quality control built in, the project manager can see exactly what's going on on the site, see if the cable is bent too much, see if the installation is proper or not. Uh referring back to uh the model and and in the AI just literally outlines what is wrong with an install, really reducing the revisit and uh time on site, even for the install.

SPEAKER_00 5:08

So, follow-up question. This the human in the loop, uh, the project manager, uh, this is a corporate employee that works for you, or is this uh again, like is it uh a contractor? And two, when when you're referring to AI, what is the AI scene? Are you uploading images? Is it like real-time video? Um, to be able to correct um, let's say, some kind of an impropriety you mentioned bent cable to ensure that the right angle is there, or whatever it might be.

SPEAKER_02 5:41

Exactly. So uh the first question. So, our technicians are all contractors, uh, that allows us the flexibility of being one week in one place and another week in another. There's projects all over the country. Sometimes they're busy in California, but the next week you're not, and so you want to uh pay your technicians well and generously for the time they are on the work, and when they don't, then you don't have any obligations when they're not working, right? And so those are all 1099s across the US, and then uh contractors here in Canada. In terms of the AI, uh, it really looks for anything outside industry standards, right? So we upload pictures as the technicians walks through a site and does his install in that checklist that he has to follow, right? It's a step-by-step. One step is to run your cable, then it's to do your cable test, then it's to plug in your camera, then it's like every single step of the way, we have picture evidence, which creates a very uh audit-friendly trail to uh our closeout reports, which we share with our clients. And so every client after the job sees exactly what went on and can refer back to that documentation uh if anything goes under warranty or any issues surface later on. Everything's documented when we're working on a site, uh and then the AI itself, yeah, it's it's picture-based. So every picture uploaded and ran through that.

SPEAKER_00 7:20

So you mentioned you want to pay your technicians really well. What audio incentive structures have you considered and put in place to improve the quality of this distributed field operations?

SPEAKER_02 7:34

I mean, the industry is pretty it's it's regulated, right? It's it's pretty um consistent on the professionals we're hiring, those technicians, and the expectations for those technicians. I mean, they install cameras every single week, right? They in, they out, so then they know how to to do their job. Uh for us, it's really just been to be on top of it. If you let it slide, if you don't see anything for a week, by the end of the week, you have no idea what you're getting into. But if we're constantly on top of a project, then we know the quality and what to expect.

SPEAKER_00 8:14

Makes sense, makes sense. Um you mentioned AI in terms of the the actual installs. Where else are you using AI in the business and in what capacity?

SPEAKER_02 8:28

Uh, we're doing AI for quotes, quote review for all the technical sides. Uh we have a model to kind of read through construction drawings, uh, do bids, do RFPs, right? Uh we use it in the office pretty much for every step of the process.

SPEAKER_00 8:51

And are you technical with background? Um, did did you gonna like who who's who's spear who is spearheading AI adoption within your company? Are you championing it from the top?

SPEAKER_02 9:03

Gonna like tell me how top yeah. I mean, uh I have more of a financial background and came from finance, but I've always had interest and uh was adept of technologies and and especially the the internet, right? At the very beginning, uh when I was a kid, I got a book, HTML for beginners, and went through the whole HTML, CSS, um, and then evolution of the web from static pages to what it is today. And so now in the company with AI, it's it's really been uh from management top-down approach, kind of pushing it through every step of the process, and it's really to show employees how it helps them, how it speeds up their processes and eliminates their manual parts.

SPEAKER_00 9:58

What has been the the biggest factor for their um adoption or embracing AI? I mean, you mentioned like obviously makes their job easier, faster, better, but like what like the the fearings that AI is gonna take my job, so kind of like how do you calm these fears? How do you how do you show them what's possible using AI?

SPEAKER_02 10:19

Yeah, we're in a very technical field. Uh however, there's still some boring manual work, right? If you have a construction plan with 360 cameras on an Air Force base, those are tiny triangles, and you need to count 360 tiny triangles. Uh, there's nothing technical to that. So you run AI, it tells you there's 360, you go from there, and it's way, way faster. You're still very engaged and involved as an employee with us, everything you bring your knowledge to, right? So there's still a lot of technical side that is uh dependent on people's knowledge and experiences.

SPEAKER_00 11:00

What I mean, speaking of experiences, uh, I'm I'm curious what happens if um the AI is providing one set of directions, and the human is like, no, that's that doesn't make sense, that's not correct.

SPEAKER_02 11:16

Uh we always ask our employees to double check that and technicians, right? It's always uh use your judgment.

SPEAKER_00 11:30

Uh so and that makes sense. You always want to have human in the loop. Um what so in in terms of um AI, what new risks introduce when an organization uses AI to direct work in a physical environment? Kind of like what what have been some of the aha moments for you?

SPEAKER_02 11:52

Uh in terms of risk, uh yeah, risk physical environment. Yeah, um there's a liability, of course, right? We're doing we're we're doing life safety. So if you're doing uh a fire sprinkler job and uh the AI tells you to do one thing, which is not up to code, then that's up to you know, we still need engineers to double check everything and and uh stamp everything on the field itself. I mean, we're not depending on on AI necessarily on the field uh to base their decision making, it's more of a helper. So just use it for the the comments and kind of the the helper along the way rather than replacing their job or anything.

SPEAKER_00 12:42

So speaking of job replacement, I mean obviously AI first came for the jobs of the white-collar workers, but they're all of these physical AI companies that they're in robotic farms that they're heavily going after the blue collar work. Um what is your take on it?

SPEAKER_02 13:02

I think it really opens up a lot of the market, right? Our industry, for example, so talking about low voltage technicians, security technicians, right? Uh this is highly in demand and understaffed. Uh, you look at a lot of the large national integrators, uh, national uh service firms, they'll have 300, 400 open postings for jobs for this uh uh sector. So we're in a labor shortage. With our solution, with what we're doing, we're kind of opening that up to more and more people. We're opening it up to uh you don't necessarily need to know everything to install it first because you have your step-by-step, you have your AI assistant, you have really uh someone holding in your hand as you're doing it. So it opens it up to more of a handyman kind of level rather than an advanced uh certified technician level. Um, we're not quite there yet, right? Right now we're still highly specialized and trained, and we're using certified technicians and uh our jobs, but that's the future of it is really opening it up to a broader um job market and really getting more people into the industry and helping more people get jobs. So actually increasing the total jobs by humans, not decreasing it.

SPEAKER_00 14:36

Would you say that this has been uh uh a key unlock for you being able to attract uh perhaps underemployed people to do the work uh rather than competing with uh with existing companies that uh already have uh or seeking technicians?

SPEAKER_02 15:01

Yeah, as I said, like in the process, we're not there yet. Uh the benefits we did see now and really uh take advantage of is the gig economy model, right? So comparing to the larger integrator that offer full-time employment, and you're stuck with that usual uh job, usually lower wages uh as a full-time worker, we offer the flexibility uh to work when you want. We offer like higher pay per hour, um, but as an independent contractor. And a lot of the guys working for us actually do have full-time jobs with the big national guys, uh, but we offer that flexibility, right? The flexibility of earning more on the side and the similarly to Uber or or delivering on food uh apps, right? It's but a highly rewarded and technical job that they like to do.

SPEAKER_00 16:04

What um what have be what has been the um the biggest challenge to date in terms of scaling the company and and yeah, let's let's give the questions brief.

SPEAKER_02 16:20

Yeah. Right now we've been having more demand than what we could supply, right? It's been a crazy industry. Uh we work with data centers, the hyperscalers, we work in retail and restaurants, and a lot of these industries that are just massive, massive. Um we've been restrained in our growth by our capacity to hire more people, grow more with the capital uh resources needed. Uh, we spent a lot of time building out processes and building out our app and and everything to allow us to scale. And I think we're right there at that this moment where we're ready to scale. Uh but it we did experience a lot of resource restraints uh for scaling. And we're still growing year over year, but it's been yeah, mainly on uh just having the resources to grow.

SPEAKER_00 17:21

And we're always uh purely speaking about fine uh human resources, human and financial resources, technology resources, kind of like how would you define it?

SPEAKER_02 17:32

Mainly uh financial and human.

SPEAKER_00 17:38

What's um on the financial side, what has been the like or it is there a cost that you underestimated or like I mean you're cavalry-based, but majority of your work is in US. Uh kind of entering this market, has there been like an aha moment? Um did you underestimate the the complexity or maybe the ease with which it is to enter the US market? Kind of like what has been your experience?

SPEAKER_02 18:11

Uh getting into the US market was actually it was pretty easy, actually. So surprisingly, uh over there, like just selling seems to be easier, uh, the opportunities are bigger, and they just have uh more eager to try out new things, and Canada seems very conservative on that.

SPEAKER_00 18:36

Why is why do you think that is the case? Why is Canada conservative?

SPEAKER_02 18:42

I think it roots from all the way back and then our banking system and governments and how it's still operating today, where yeah, they're they're very, very conservative and slow to adopt new technologies.

SPEAKER_00 19:04

I'm curious um when uh uh because I mean obviously you you you hear that this rhetoric and and I've observed it too. Um a lot of Canadian companies kind of focus on Canada rather than treating Canada just as the pilot and focusing on export markets. Um how should founders think about growth, uh expansions, new geographies, what's required to succeed, who are more founders, Canadian founders, not more aggressive about uh you know driving business across the border?

SPEAKER_02 19:45

I don't know. I don't know it's I mean for me it took what half an hour to incorporate in Delaware online. You go through Stripe or whichever cheap incorporation uh website that you can find. Yeah, 500 bucks. You have a company, and then file your taxes every year for a few thousand dollars. That's really it. They have free bank accounts, free wires, free ACA, everything's uh more competitive there. Um and once you're up and going, you can operate out everything from here in Canada. Yeah, the clients are larger, bigger budgets, 10 times the population, right? And and the way less whisker, so ready to try stuff.

SPEAKER_00 20:41

I agree. Have there been any contracts um kind of going into the states? Because you mentioned the the contracts are bigger. I mean, obviously population size 10 times, I mean, yeah, it's 10 times bigger than Canada. Have there been any contracts that on the surface look very, very attractive, strategic, but you declined because uh I don't know, economics or printing conditions or liability, like something just was not right.

SPEAKER_02 21:08

Uh for us it's been mainly, you know, on the financials. Sometimes some larger companies know they're large and they can get pretty aggressive on the terms. Yeah, uh don't do a deal at 120-day payment terms, yeah, that will kill your cash flow and kill your business. Yeah. So uh they'll try that, but uh push back.

SPEAKER_00 21:30

Yeah, yeah. So what do you if from your perspective, Boris, what do you think have been the biggest unlocks uh in terms of um your growth? Uh you you mentioned technology, um but like like if if you were to rank stack like top five factors for your success and growth, what would they be?

SPEAKER_02 21:55

Know how to sell, know what you're selling, right? It took a while for us to know. Exactly what we're selling. And as we pivoted to the security industry, originally, you know, you're you're trying to sell a camera, you're trying to sell a sense of feeling secure or whatever it is. And that wasn't our market fit. Way too much competition. There's anyone with the pickup truck and the ladder can install a camera. Where we found our fit is we enable large deployments. We can install a thousand locations. You have 10,000 restaurants, we can install them. Whereas the guy in the pickup truck can't do that, right? So we really found our fit and where it clicked with customers. And also as soon as you get one or two done, then you have your proof. You have your market established, and then everything snowballs from there.

SPEAKER_00 22:53

I get that, but but you don't get the 750 installers overnight. So kind of like walk me through your journey of I don't know, this is one to ten, ten to a hundred, a hundred to seven, hundred and fifty.

SPEAKER_02 23:07

What have been kind of like the yeah, we we started on a job-by-job uh process, and then the technicians, I mean, they grow as our demand grows. So if we had a team in California, we grew a team in California, then Texas, then New York, and then it just added up that we're in every single state. But it's really been growing after customer demand. Yeah. Don't grow too fast, follow your client.

SPEAKER_00 23:39

Do you do you leverage partnerships and channel strategy? Like what's your go-to-market?

SPEAKER_02 23:46

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Go to market. Uh a lot of our business comes from manufacturers, right? So they do hardware, but they won't touch the install. But every time they sell a hardware, someone needs to install it. So if you're that guy, the they'll keep bringing more and more jobs to you. And as long as you do a good job, then they start uh really liking you more. Um, so that's been really good. And then to end customers, it's mainly been trade shows, conferences, or shaking hands, seeing them in person, going to their offices, meeting in person. Uh it's in the states. Well, you need to fly down and go to the states.

SPEAKER_00 24:29

Yeah. What what would you say relationships are built in person?

SPEAKER_02 24:35

Oh, yeah, definitely.

SPEAKER_00 24:40

So I mean, obviously, you you're building a very successful business. What have been your founder and leadership lessons as you've scaled the company?

SPEAKER_02 24:54

Um particular you want more focus? I mean, a lot of happens in six years.

SPEAKER_00 25:04

I I'm I'm I'm just I'm just curious. I mean, uh you and I are part of VMSA. Um, you you coach founders. Um so what have been kind of like the the pivotal moments for you in terms of your leadership journey?

SPEAKER_02 25:19

I mean, you'll always need to deal with people, right? You're not getting away from that either. Even as a fellow founder, you need to sell, you need to deal with people. Um so get used to that, get used to talking, get used to shaking hands, going to networking events, uh start local in your city, do every single networking event you can. Um, you know, and then you start traveling and going to the larger conferences. But it's really always been focused on the people, similar to employees, similar to our contractors, right? Even 1099. They're not disposable, they're people. They have to feed their families and go back home and feed their kids, and so always value your people and they'll grow with you.

SPEAKER_00 26:06

Great. This is in the agency of artists, absolutely. Um, given that we're both um Calgary-based, what have been the uh the networking events, organizations, associations, kind of like the channels that that you have found to be most effective in growing your brand, driving rich, building business?

SPEAKER_02 26:31

Yeah, in Calgary in particular, the stampede is always good. There's a lot of corporate events during the stampede, and that will cross-reference multiple industries. So then you can have some with the BDC and the you know, more banking side. You have some with lawyers and accountants, you have some more on you know, specific clients that you're targeting. If you're in real estate, there's events for real estate, and and you really target your industry, but also other industries and kind of cross multiple industries that way. Eventbrite has always been good finding events, uh and then trade shows, right? Anything that's happening around the BMO center. And uh, if you're ready to travel a bit, then there's always a good trade show somewhere going on. So if you want to stay busy.

SPEAKER_00 27:20

How do you make the most out of trade shows? Do you like participate, exhibit? What have you found to work?

SPEAKER_02 27:28

Uh it's usually more on the networking side. So meeting clients, meaning potential clients while you're there. It's a really good way to all be at the same place at the same time. So in my industry, for example, right, there's a big one in Vegas. Well, that week in Vegas, everyone's there. Every single one of my clients, everyone I want to target and potential clients, they're all there. So then never eat alone, book all your meals with some uh partners and potential clients. Um and then enjoy your time there. Uh and again, it's not about just staying quiet in a corner taking notes about the conference talks or whatever. You need to talk to people, just talk around, work the room.

SPEAKER_00 28:20

What's uh what's keeping you in Calgary rather than moving somewhere into the States?

SPEAKER_02 28:26

My family's here. I'm Canadian. I mean, we've been we've developed this whole company as a remote project management business, so it's easy to manage from everywhere to anywhere. So that's the point.

SPEAKER_00 28:42

I mean, Canada's an amazing place. Um I personally lived here for nearly 30 years, and I can't say enough. Um curious, um, what is a lesson from building OKUS? And by the way, is it OKUS?

unknown 29:05

OK.

SPEAKER_00 29:06

How do you pronounce OKOS? So, what what is one lesson from building OKUS that applies to any founder whose product must ultimately be delivered in a physical world?

SPEAKER_02 29:19

Um what what do you mean by that?

SPEAKER_00 29:25

Like what like where I'm going is um a lot of the companies that go faster, typically a technology-based company or SaaS companies or AI companies, you're you're you're both, right? Like you live in the digital and and the analog world in terms of the physical install. So anything in particular that because you're we have this duality that that stands out in terms of a lesson that that a founder can take away from from what you've done.

SPEAKER_02 29:58

Yeah, I think if you're going into the real world, uh again, take care of your people, right? You always will have a technician or uh some kind of labor force at the end of it, if it's dashers or uber drivers or whatever it is, uh, take care of them very well because you need both, right? You need your clients on one side, it's a marketplace. You need clients on one side and then the supply on the other to supply that labor.

SPEAKER_00 30:25

Yeah. Okay, okay. Um, so my company focuses on on scaling, uh helping other founders scale. When founders say they are ready to scale, what evidence are you looking for inside the business to convince you that that uh that they're ready?

SPEAKER_02 30:46

Market fit fit only metric. You can be broke and you know have a solo founder or whatever. I don't care about the team, you're not growing the team 10x, you're growing your market 10x. And so if you have an actual demand, an actual MSA, or you know, you have a contract in front of you that says you need to deliver 10x what you did last year, well, that's your growth.

SPEAKER_00 31:21

So I and I couldn't agree more. I mean, but we say the same thing, like uh, and the reason why we work with scalp so not startup is is the same. Like we're looking for clear product market fit because then the business or the founder is ready to stand on the gas pedal and just accelerate. Um I I couldn't agree more with you there. Um, but product market fit or or market demand is is it's a journey. Like uh the market doesn't stay still, stand still.

SPEAKER_02 31:51

So um three years to find it, right? It took us three years, and as we started in the smart home space, and then it wasn't a fit, right? There was no growth in there. Uh not amazing margins, uh, it was a project-by-project basis. Yeah, it was uh saturated by very big players, so you get one or two of those big ones, but then what, right? If you can get REITs onboarded, there's a limit of those players out there. Um so now that we've pivoted in the in the past three years, right? That switch made a very, very clear market fit in demand. And now in our backlog, we have demand for 30x our current revenues in the next five years.

SPEAKER_00 32:41

Okay, uh what exploit is a little bit further, so I like I couldn't agree more. Like you should always be looking um for the fit. Now, founders um struggle with familiarity bias, like it the things that you know you look for those technos to. Um, I mean, besides COVID, what prompted you to um to say this is not the industry for us? Like it's too small, it's it's like they it's it's uh um populated with incumbent, it's uh it's a red ocean, we need to find a blue ocean. Kind of like how did you go through the through the through the what was your thought process in terms of um it and and the honesty that that you had with yourself uh in terms of determinants like no, we're gonna depart this industry and we're gonna focus on something new.

SPEAKER_02 33:33

To be honest, I was blind to it. I didn't see it until it hit me with COVID and that kind of triggered everything. But yeah, going into it, growing into it, and then we had you know these uh large reads starting to be interested, and where all the talks and everything that they drag you along, and there's always a motion of this next deal, next deal, next deal. Uh so you're yeah, you're blind to it totally.

SPEAKER_00 34:00

What's the what is the hardest part of scaling that becomes obvious only after Grow has already arrived?

SPEAKER_01 34:16

Yeah, I don't I don't know about that one in a clear example.

SPEAKER_00 34:23

Okay, let's uh pivot to a different question. Can you finish this sentence? A company has achieved clarity when it knows.

SPEAKER_02 34:37

Like I started the episode with when it knows what it's selling. I didn't know what I was selling until four years in, right? I mean, the first three years was a different thing, and then we pivoted, and then the even the first year in the security industry, still then I didn't know what I was selling. You're not selling your features, you're not selling your app, you're not selling any shiny button you can create. It's really that result, that end result that the client is wanting that you're selling.

SPEAKER_00 35:17

Who does the selling of your company? I mean, besides obviously, in the beginning it was all founder-led sales.

SPEAKER_02 35:23

Um now because still led with my kind of vision and push. Um and I still do a lot of it, and the and the especially the travel and the the face-to-face enterprise, more larger deal sales, uh deal flow.

SPEAKER_00 35:51

Makes sense. Uh Boris, I I like to finish my interviews with a with a choice of questions. Um one, what is the best advice that you have ever received, or what is the nicest thing, or the kind, the kindest thing that anyone has ever done for you?

SPEAKER_02 36:17

I think mentors has always been there along the way. Um, some are good, some are bad, right? Some are greedy and wants a part of your company and ask for percentages and ask for retainers and ask for monthly payments, blah blah blah blah, can go down the list. And I went through those, right? Wasn't immune to that. Uh, but there's some people generally out there just to help. And those are the people you need to find.

SPEAKER_00 36:47

So finding a good mentor, uh, amazing. Um any um any book, any final question? Any books that you would recommend? What's the I don't know, don't you don't even have to provide top three, but your favorite book that has helped you scale your business?

SPEAKER_02 37:06

Um there's emotional intelligence behaviors by Sandra Jessup. Okay, that's been pretty good. Um, okay for all vetery valore. Again, going back to people, right? Know how to manage your people, manage expectations for your people, and then uh one last one. I would say prep, push, pivot, really going through pivots. The only way your startup will succeed is by pivoting.

SPEAKER_00 37:45

If you don't pivot quick enough, agree, uh agreed, agreed. Um, I I I couldn't agree more with you. I mean, like uh in particular the OKR objectives and Q results, like this was obviously um Intel's brainchild, and now it's adopted by all technology companies, but I can't tell you how how rarely do I see OKRs in uh in big companies. Um you would see some form of goals and cascading goals, uh, but but never OKRs. Um we are uh we're massive fans of the Atlas and Switter projects because we for for ourselves, but also for our companies and clients, um, because we say use use your Jira for project management, use your atlas for your goals, use your conference for communication, make sure that everything is uh all integrated so that you can have a clear line of sight in terms of like where am I going and how am I doing in terms of achieving the the DM goal. Yeah, um I just want to say thank you for your time. Um, enjoyed having you on the pod and getting you insights in terms of how you scale the whole cost. So, best of luck in the journey ahead.

SPEAKER_02 39:01

Thank you so much.

SPEAKER_00 39:03

Thanks, Boris. Thanks, have a great day.

SPEAKER_02 39:05

Bye bye.

SPEAKER_00 39:06

Yeah.